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Toadwater  |  Toadwater Inn  |  The Padded Cell  |  Topic: For good will and prosperity 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: For good will and prosperity  (Read 13827 times)
Heavenly Seraph
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2005, 05:46:35 am »

Okay, so once the power shift is complete, I'll be joining the Court. We'll hold the official election tomorrow night.
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Eagle Owl
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« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2005, 06:01:19 am »

So, wait, are we all playing along and pretending that we don't know that Drake is either another Faust mule or a friend of his?  I'm just wondering.
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christo
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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2005, 10:14:21 am »

Apart from "turning toadwater into a communist game" what is the actual goal? Some people ask "what kind of government" I ask "why government". Surely this is just a philosophical debate because you don't need a political system to find out that Qill is in charge and he will do what he damn well pleases. What would any government in toadwater actually do.
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LordShaggy
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2005, 10:42:32 am »

the same thing it is now. nothing  Grin
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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2005, 11:18:51 am »

again, my sincere apologies for not making myself clear Faust, and yet you did get my point.  I don't think you can have it one way or the other, because it's a combination of both.

you say that our intelligence overrides our instincts, I say yes, sometimes it does, but not all the time.  You failed to notice my point about morality though, where did it come from?  if human nature is not to blame because our intelligence overrides it, then... where?

Anyway, I feel that a debate about humanity is somewhat pointless here as neither one of us is going to convince the other.  I feel we are both missing the others point.  If you were to give me one single example of communism working in a real world situation, then I would be forced to accept that there is more to it than idealistic fantasy, but until such time as that, I'm secure in my belief that whilst it is a wonderful idea, it's a failed system that is contrary to how human beings work.
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faust
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« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2005, 02:53:50 pm »

Apart from "turning toadwater into a communist game" what is the actual goal? Some people ask "what kind of government" I ask "why government". Surely this is just a philosophical debate because you don't need a political system to find out that Qill is in charge and he will do what he damn well pleases. What would any government in toadwater actually do.



Why government? Why not?  Tongue

Or if you are looking for a more serious answer.... Toadwater needs a government for the same reason that the real world needs governments - to protect the majority of the people from the powerful minority that would love to exploit them. In the real world, governments are needed to keep the most powerful/intelligent/fearless few from imposing their will upon others to the DETRIMENT of those others (the detriment part is very important - the government also imposes its will but, if it is not detrimental to the majority, then it is acceptable). In Toadwater we need a government to protect most of the players from the few criminal land owners who seek to ruin the game for everyone else.


again, my sincere apologies for not making myself clear Faust, and yet you did get my point.  I don't think you can have it one way or the other, because it's a combination of both.

you say that our intelligence overrides our instincts, I say yes, sometimes it does, but not all the time.  You failed to notice my point about morality though, where did it come from?  if human nature is not to blame because our intelligence overrides it, then... where?

Anyway, I feel that a debate about humanity is somewhat pointless here as neither one of us is going to convince the other.  I feel we are both missing the others point.  If you were to give me one single example of communism working in a real world situation, then I would be forced to accept that there is more to it than idealistic fantasy, but until such time as that, I'm secure in my belief that whilst it is a wonderful idea, it's a failed system that is contrary to how human beings work.


I think that we understand each other just fine - we simply find our respective viewpoints to be diametrically opposed at this point in time.

As far as morality is concerned, I toe the nihalist party line. That is, I view "morality" as complete and utter nonsense. It is neither genetic nor intelligent in nature - it is simply a holdover from the dark ages of humanity, a relic of religious fanaticism. What better argument can one have for destroying another human being then to call him "evil?" That's all that morality is - a destructive oversimplification of the world by people too ignorant to know otherwise. I'm having none of it, thank you very much.

Finally, I will not name a succesful Communist nation. Neither will you be able to name an unsuccesful one. There have been no Communist nations yet, period.


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OldSpider
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« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2005, 03:04:34 pm »

Finally, I will not name a succesful Communist nation. Neither will you be able to name an unsuccesful one. There have been no Communist nations yet, period.

that would be my point.  people have tried, it hasn't happened yet.

and as for morality, if you no sense of right and wrong whatsoever, why are you even trying to argue this point, surely because you believe it is "right" and our current system is "wrong".  Surely that is how one would define morality, a sense of seperation between right and wrong.

and if in fact you argue that morality is specific to "good" and "evil", then I would argue the same point, you are essentially claiming that the so called "land barons" are evil and in the wrong, and that you are "good" and in the right.  a sense of morality is built into every person as far as I can see, and denouncing the concept of good and evil as a "relic of religious fanaticism" is altogether bizarre as I'm sure 99% of the population would agree.
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LordShaggy
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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2005, 12:48:48 am »

hahah
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When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace

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Written by Trevor 'tj9991' Slocum
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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2005, 03:56:04 am »

and as for morality, if you no sense of right and wrong whatsoever, why are you even trying to argue this point, surely because you believe it is "right" and our current system is "wrong".  Surely that is how one would define morality, a sense of seperation between right and wrong.

and if in fact you argue that morality is specific to "good" and "evil", then I would argue the same point, you are essentially claiming that the so called "land barons" are evil and in the wrong, and that you are "good" and in the right.  a sense of morality is built into every person as far as I can see, and denouncing the concept of good and evil as a "relic of religious fanaticism" is altogether bizarre as I'm sure 99% of the population would agree.



I reject moral claims on the basis of insufficient proof. If you were to call a person "evil," I would ask you to proove this assertion. How would you do this? By quoting the Bible at me? That would prove nothing, since you would still not be able to proove that the Bible is CORRECT in ITS assertions. In this sense, defering to other authority would simply be to engage in a circular argument.

Of course, as any intelligent nihalist will tell you, morality is not the only way to make actual decisions in life. In fact, after we get rid of the meaningless concepts of "good" and "evil," our choices will be much easier to make...

For example, I do not fight against criminal land barons because they are "evil." They are no such thing; neither are they "good." They simply ARE. So why fight against them? Because they do not subscribe to my theory of "justice" (ie: the treatment of all human beings with provisional equality). But is it "good" to be "just," you might ask? No - it is neither "good" nor "evil." It is simply something that I choose to pursue as a free human agent. Those who pursue other ideas will be met with violence, which too is neither "good" nor "evil."

So you see, I completely lack a system of moral judgement, yet that makes me MORE free to act as I choose, not less.


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TheDrew
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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2005, 05:38:31 pm »

Hmm... but how do we know you're right with your choice of justice? So far it's proven wrong as you have attack new players who have done nothing. You're choices don't agree with anyone elses. You push your opinions as if they are law but you have no power to make law in a world that isn't real.
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Giasumaru, A Shadow
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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2005, 08:37:41 pm »

Hmm... but how do we know you're right with your choice of justice? So far it's proven wrong as you have attack new players who have done nothing. You're choices don't agree with anyone elses. You push your opinions as if they are law but you have no power to make law in a world that isn't real.

Did you hear? He isn't doing whats right or wrong. Its his sense of justice, that he wishes will prevail.
All he is saying is not right or wrong but that he plainly says "Do what I say. Or I will "Raid" you."
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faust
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« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2005, 04:02:24 am »

[quote author=Judge Naked Dwarf link=topic=16264.msg199632#msg199632 date=1113925111]
Hmm... but how do we know you're right with your choice of justice? So far it's proven wrong as you have attack new players who have done nothing. You're choices don't agree with anyone elses. You push your opinions as if they are law but you have no power to make law in a world that isn't real.

Did you hear? He isn't doing whats right or wrong. Its his sense of justice, that he wishes will prevail.
All he is saying is not right or wrong but that he plainly says "Do what I say. Or I will "Raid" you."
[/quote]


That is indeed correct.

By rejecting morality, I effectively make it impossible to judge my actions. Are they right? Are they wrong? Neither - they are simply those actions that I currently choose to engage in. According to me, these actions are value-neutral.

Of course, naked one, YOU may call them "wrong," but what makes your opinion better than my own? Until you can prove that your theory of morality is better than my theory of the lack thereof, I see no reason to assume that you can overrule me on this matter.



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TheDrew
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« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2005, 04:29:13 am »

I don't have to overrule you. The people have spoken. You have no power, and your choices are nothing to any of us.

But that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy your continued dance...

DANCE MONKEY DANCE!
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Heavenly Seraph
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« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2005, 05:59:14 am »

Indeed, the ball is in Jane's court now. No use hearing from some deposed leader.

And I thought Faust would have been more fond of this sort of revolution.
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Shanli
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« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2005, 12:48:48 pm »

[quote author=aasaasdsadasdas link=topic=16264.msg199647#msg199647 date=1113935861]
[quote author=Judge Naked Dwarf link=topic=16264.msg199632#msg199632 date=1113925111]
Hmm... but how do we know you're right with your choice of justice? So far it's proven wrong as you have attack new players who have done nothing. You're choices don't agree with anyone elses. You push your opinions as if they are law but you have no power to make law in a world that isn't real.

Did you hear? He isn't doing whats right or wrong. Its his sense of justice, that he wishes will prevail.
All he is saying is not right or wrong but that he plainly says "Do what I say. Or I will "Raid" you."
[/quote]


That is indeed correct.

By rejecting morality, I effectively make it impossible to judge my actions. Are they right? Are they wrong? Neither - they are simply those actions that I currently choose to engage in. According to me, these actions are value-neutral.

Of course, naked one, YOU may call them "wrong," but what makes your opinion better than my own? Until you can prove that your theory of morality is better than my theory of the lack thereof, I see no reason to assume that you can overrule me on this matter.




[/quote]


This is amusing to me. In other words, he throws away morals so he can do as he likes without fear of guilt, or self-criticism over his actions. He can do anything he likes because he can claim there is no right and wrong.

To use Faust's insult to me in example --A wolf might not see right and wrong when he slaughters some farmer's sheep. Yet the farmer who owns the sheep might see the destruction of his herd as a wrong or as evil. Guess it's convenient for Faust to claim as little morality as an animal, just so he can get what he likes.

Keep in mind the farmer may feel in the right to take action, based on the wrong done to him. He doesn't need to prove squat. He just needs to kill the wolf.
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* hempgrowerdan slips Jester some wood
TheDrew
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« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2005, 04:27:02 pm »

A wolf feels he is right by killing the sheep for it is killing it to live, to feed it's pack. The farmer feels he is right for hating the wolf for the farmer needed that sheep for the same reason. The sheep feels it is right for it doesn't want to be killed by either, it too wants to live.

All live be one code or another, all live by what they feel they need to in order to live in the world. All have some sort of morals guiding them. You can't make a choice with out them.
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Heavenly Seraph
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« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2005, 06:22:45 pm »

Unless that choice is purely self-serving. There really is no honor without right and wrong.
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