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Toadwater  |  Archives  |  Old Tavern Posts  |  Government Discussion  |  Topic: Remember: The Official Constitution is the one in Toadwiki 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Remember: The Official Constitution is the one in Toadwiki  (Read 6493 times)
clatra
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« on: January 06, 2008, 06:03:52 pm »

http://toadwater.com/Guide/index.php/Constitution
From here on out, please only copy from it for official purposes.

Note that the numbering/format does not exactly match what was adopted by the community on the forums. Although it is impossible to please everyone regarding numbering/format, I have chosen the optimum scheme for changing it easily (both for players who propose a CCR and for Toadwiki admins).

The scheme currently includes 16 sections numbered 1 - 16. Furthermore section 4, for example, has 14 paragraphs numbered 4.1 - 4.14. Although I liked the supersection headings (The Constitution, The Government, and The Players), I feel there are too many downsides to renumbering latter sections when a section near the beginning is added. Therefore I removed the supersection headings and plan to add any new sections on to the end of the Constitution. If this gets too messy, perhaps an annual reformatting/renumbering would be in order when no CCRs are happening.


EDIT: crossed out info that no longer applies
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 06:53:07 pm by clatra » Logged

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Twisti
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2008, 10:20:20 pm »

Two things:

a) You broke Dragoons special paragraph.
b) We very specifically argued over the use of the paragraph sign, and Dragoon decided to go with the paragraph sign. Please don't try the cheap "I had to reformat" trick to push your agenda through. I'm confident that it is not beyond your considerable Wiki-editing-skills to keep the paragraphs.
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2008, 10:28:11 pm »

We are working on it, but suffice to say it isn't a straightforward task to format it in a proper wiki fashion and maintain the numbering and stuff that you have.
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clatra
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2008, 02:09:01 am »

Please don't try the cheap "I had to reformat" trick to push your agenda through. I'm confident that it is not beyond your considerable Wiki-editing-skills to keep the paragraphs.
True. It is, however, a pain in the ass. And not just the first time the Constitution is formatted -- I mean every time it needs to be updated it will be a pain for whomever updates it. Which, 9 times out of 10, is going to be me -- and it would take an ungodly amount of time for someone else to figure out how to fix it the other 10% of the time. That is my agenda.

Honestly the format is now simpler than it was and no meaning has been lost.

As long as the paragraphs are consistently numbered and easily understood by players, I do not see why Toadwikiadmins should spend time now or later to make it match the forum format that included Matthias' little joke.

If Spider or other Toadwikiadmins want to spend time on it now I am not going to stop you. But I may insist down the road that you get to keep it updated so do not plan on taking a vacation from TW anytime soon.
 Wink
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clatra
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2008, 02:09:18 am »

Although I brought it up a couple weeks back, a related issue that still needs resolution is the definition of a paragraph. It is not defined in the Constitution unless you count 4.1:
'The subject shall be "Constitution Change Request: x.x", where x.x is the number of the paragraph in question.'
As I have said privately, I do not care if it is called a paragraph, a section, a part, whatever. What is important is that it is clearly defined and consistently used.

If you recall the forum version of the Constitution included
superparagraphs like
§13 - If any player announces...
paragraphs like
§14.1 - MultiClienting (determined by...
and subparagraphs like
§14.1.1 - For players above rank 50: Removal...

In the Official Constitution I have taken the liberty to ensure all paragraphs are under a superparagraph which actually promoted all subparagraphs into paragraph status. But still the question remains: should superparagraphs be changeable? Since I think most players will agree that they should be, should a CCR be done on 4.1 to read something like:
'The subject shall be "Constitution Change Request: x", where x is the number of the paragraph (i.e. 4, 4.2, 4.2.1, etc) in question.'?

I think this may help avoid confusion as it better defines a paragraph as any numbered section. It also allows for any level of subpoints to be added if future changes call for them.
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Twisti
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2008, 05:20:38 am »

I still don't get why you can call it "a section" but not "a paragraph" without problem. Nobody is forcing you to call them superparagraphs, subparagraphs, miniparagraphs and whatnot, just like nobody is forcing you to call them supersection, subsection, etc.

Also, as Spider pointed out, just because it was more easy doing it like this does not give you the right to unilaterally push your agenda without any sort of feedback, discussion or decision. Autonumbering is nice, but it's not like renumbering paragraphs, something that will be rather rare, is going to be such a pain in the ass. I wrote it, so I had to renumber paragraphs a few times. Takes like 30 seconds. If it's too much work for you, I'm certain we could find someone willing to take that precious time.
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clatra
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2008, 07:07:29 pm »

Although I brought it up a couple weeks back, a related issue that still needs resolution is the definition of a paragraph.
Which you still refuse to resolve.

I think you may feel the definition of a paragraph is obvious. I assure you, since I am still confused and I have spoken to others who are confused, the definition is NOT obvious.

If §4 is a paragraph, and §4.1 is a paragraph, and §14.1.1 is a paragraph, but section titles are not paragraphs, great.

I can sum that up with a simple statement:
Anything after a section sign is a paragraph.

The reason I have not initiated a CCR is you have danced around this issue for weeks. Heaven forbid I misunderstand your desires and change the Constitution to something gnarled and hideous.
 Cheesy

Please, try acting like a Viceroy for a moment and work with me on this: confirm my statement is true. Or if it is false, explain in exact detail what a paragraph is in the Constitution.
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Twisti
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2008, 11:01:03 pm »

I don't refuse to resolve it, I have trouble understanding your problem. I have told you before that over here, the sign means "paragraph". Many seem to agree with that; everyone other than yourself in fact. Obviously, everything that has a § in front of is a paragraph. Or a section, to you. Still, no matter whether you call it paragraph or section, it's the same for §4, §4.1 and §4.1.1. I don't understand why that is such a complicated concept to grasp.

Since we seem to have some sort of communication problem: Yes, your statement is true (and apparently obvious to everyone but you).
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clatra
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2008, 12:09:45 am »

Since we seem to have some sort of communication problem: Yes, your statement is true (and apparently obvious to everyone but you).
Actually, I believe it is a different-side-of-the-pond issue in that Americans use terms differently than some Europeans.

The section sign (§) is a typographical character used mainly to refer to a particular section of a document, such as a legal code. It is frequently used along with the pilcrow (¶), or paragraph sign. Note that these signs are switched in "some European usage" according to some sources.

A paragraph is a piece of writing that consists of one or more sentences.

See, I have done my homework. And I do not pick fights that I cannot win -- I often chose to let the "other guy" win because it is to my political advantage...muahahahaa!

BUT commonly understood definitions aside, the point is moot. You have confirmed that your intention was "section sign = paragraph indicator" and I completely understand your intention. I will work on getting this clarification included in the official Constitution to avoid any future confusion in the event that you and I are run over by the proverbial beer truck.
 Cool
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Twisti
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2008, 12:13:00 am »

I know you did your homework, but the things you quoted do not seem to correspond with reality, as it is often the case with book smarts. I don't know a single person other than you that was confused about this. American or European.
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Matt Siegman
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2008, 07:16:19 am »

Usually, § and ¶ are used in reference to a document, not the document itself.

§ usually denotes section. Usually, a major section is referred to as an article. Depending on the document, it normally used as follows:
§ section.subsection or § article.section
The second number may be omitted if the document is relatively short, or a particular article/section only contains paragraphs. If further subsections are needed, they can be added; however, this is not normally recommended.

¶ usually denotes paragraph. It is normally used as follows:
¶ paragraph

Putting this together, a complete reference looks like this:

§ section.subsection ¶ paragraph

§4.1.1 --> § 4.1 ¶ 1
This can be expanded as one of the following: Article 4, Section 1, Paragraph 1; or Section 4, Subsection 1, Paragraph 1. However, the first is much more commonly used.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 07:18:31 am by Matt Siegman » Logged

Seraph
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2008, 07:20:48 am »

you're the designated driver a lot, aren't you?  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2008, 01:50:33 pm »

Heaven forbid! 
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clatra
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2008, 02:24:46 pm »

This can be expanded as one of the following: Article 4, Section 1, Paragraph 1; or Section 4, Subsection 1, Paragraph 1...
Sounds like I am not the only one that has slogged through United States Code or State regulations.
 Cheesy
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Matt Siegman
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 12:38:08 am »

Constitution mostly Wink
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Matt Siegman
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 12:40:34 am »

you're the designated driver a lot, aren't you?  Wink
Heh, I just don't drink exceeding amount of booze too incredibly often Smiley
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