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Toadwater  |  Toadwater Inn  |  Nicodemus's Classical Tavern  |  Topic: Economies 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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clatra
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2010, 05:40:02 pm »

And let's drop this pretense of economy
Either you do not understand what pretense is or what an economy is. If you mean that land in TW cannot be analyzed and discussed in economic terms, you are mistaken.

Matt, Travis -- what say you on the state of the various economies in TW? Are you only concerned about the gold issue?
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Lackey Twisti
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2010, 07:23:15 pm »

It's not an economy when it's impossible to make any trade at all. And the demographic in question are new players. They simply can not buy land. There's no maybe, or sometimes. So it's idiotic to pretend that there is an economy there because for it to be an economy there would need to be at least the possibility for trade, let alone some actual trades.
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caspian
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2010, 11:28:09 pm »


Land.

And Time.  Time cannot be traded, but can be stolen (in raiding).  Time is the main value item in TW.  You can have Time without Land, but you will just be standing in 1 place.  You can have Land without Time, but you will have cheap stuff.  (Eventually, enough Land will offset enough Time.  Re all the arguments about "the age bonus").

Time produces Gold.   If you plant a tree or make a sap farm, Time produces Gold firsthand.  No effort involved.  Most of the other economies you mentioned require some other effort....weaving skill, planting skill, being a member, etc.

The present...economies...cannot exist without massive amounts of Land and Time.  Some people have large quantities of both and fuel the upper end of the economy (or drive the inflation.)

Newbies usually have some Time but very little Land.  Twisti hinted at the current model -- you either beg for Land (a parcel from a baron) or you hide out on some Land (but not a lot) or you steal some/raid.

But you still cannot really reach the higher end.  Because the nature of the Time variable is that it cannot be caught.  You can spend have enough Land to offset SOME time, but you cannot spend ANY amount of time and make 1 square = 24 hours of work.  The exchange rate is much higher.

Driving Forces:  to explore fun new content

Methods:  Find land.  Find dead base and inhabit it.  Buy new content.  Buy old character (buy Time) and get stuff.  Be content with the content you have.

I don't think people whine...I think the game is nearly unplayable for noobs now.  I've talked to some...I started a new character.  The game is still addictive, but nowhere near what it used to be...and most of it us just because I know what is coming...I know the potential.  And I'll never spend the time playing (with a new character) to get there.  Expending 3 months of my time to get 4 new trees?  yay.  There are other games out there.  I'm sure other people who "pass through" have the same idea.

(I have talked to quite a few people who have left the game...from god to newbie.  I know why a lot of them left.  Smiley  )

Community -- an interesting concept.  Yes, there are a few people who talk on the fora and in "the channel".  The group seems to change from epoch to epoch of tw history, but there are always some.  Has the "active" base exceeded 100 yet?  (Will it ever...?)

Clatra asked if the goal was to try to temp in everyone who plays.  Based on this analysis (and reading the thread), I would say, "of course not".   Twisti himself has implied that this is a hard game and not for whiners.   A game for people who are willing to spend the Time and do repetitive actions over and over...even though the odds of their ever achieving some sort of personal goal in the game (like seeing the highest level tree from their own effort or getting ranked in the top 40) are miniscule.  The game doesn't appeal to GAMERS...they are off shooting things.  It doesn't appeal to casual players -- too little reward.

It does seem to appeal to macro writers.  Smiley  I'm just sayin...look over the fora and see some of the biggest arguments.  heh.

And think on this -- if all the OLD Gods..the old barons...hadn't gotten bored and left..would YOU be playing right now?  How many people playing right now are playing because someone gave them land...money...stuff...?

I offer that there is a third element to the economy.

Land.   Time.

And Turnover.   People leaving provide a slow mulching of the TW soil.

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Caspian the son of Caspian, lawful King of Narnia, Lord of Cair Paravel, and Emperor of the Lone Islands, Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Lion
Abyss Rose
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2010, 09:09:46 am »

That was an interesting read, I want to argue, only I can't.

A fix to this would be to use cloud worlds to give every player and equile amount of non-raidable land. And that would be everyones foot falls there play area, then call the land that is not cloud world, the PvP area the battleground.

Once every player has an = (can't spell the word to lazy to try) amount of land, change how fencing works. Make it a temporary barrier only. change the decay per level from days to hours. It will piss off land barrens as they have invested shit loads of time into there bases that are now impossible to keep.

By = amount I'm not going to be skimpish, I'm talking one super world per player. Or take a leaf out of farmville from facebooks page (there are more then just farmville that do this but I can't think of any right now and farmville seems the be the best known.) and start them out with one world square and make it upgradeable based off the player's level. The higher there over all level the more land they can have in there cloud world.

Oh and remove all restraints on cloud worlds.
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Abyss Rose
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2010, 09:12:51 am »

PvP should always be optional in online games anyway. Not everyone likes dealing with that element. Only in toadwater you can't NOT stay out of it because no mater how nice you are to people no mater your stance on raiding, you WILL get raided.
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Snuggles
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2010, 07:00:53 pm »

PvP should always be optional in online games anyway. Not everyone likes dealing with that element. Only in toadwater you can't NOT stay out of it because no mater how nice you are to people no mater your stance on raiding, you WILL get raided.
Not in cloud world
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Abyss Rose
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2010, 01:59:40 am »

you expect people to be competitive in cloud world as it is now? ha!
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Snuggles
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2010, 02:09:00 am »

dunno
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clatra
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« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2010, 10:40:11 pm »

I have given land to or shared land with others in excess of 4 continents worth of land over the last 2 years -- most of this land was made available by player turnover (fences completely fell). Granted this land turnover rate has seen the addition of new continents which, as long as the server/admins can handle it, should probably be continued at a rate of one or two continents a year (and only have Viceroys teleport those with no land to new continents, of course). I have only heard one objection to this based on Viceroys teleporting anyone indiscriminately -- do any admins have any other objections assuming the Viceroys have a clue?
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Matt Siegman
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« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2010, 11:14:52 pm »

We do not currently plan on setting any standard continent creation rate. We cannot create land indefinitely.
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Lackey Twisti
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« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2010, 11:31:26 pm »

Sure we can. We just have to delete old land every now and then Wink
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<+farmyb> id say my spelling and grammar is pretty good
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